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So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

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cook-off

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So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-08 / 06:29 UTC GMT +00:00

anyone see a rule specifically on P* stating that they have to be tourney locked and chronoed at all times like some black listed by-law dog act?

since we are all about safety and rules these days I would kinda like to hear how this came about all of a sudden?

PTW cylinder guns, quick change spring guns, hell I can adjust those to shoot well over the FPS field limits faster that I can my P*, my tank is strapped to my back in a zipped hydration pouch, I need to take off all my gear and get out an allen key, take my tank out of my bag and make adjustments.

my PTW, count to 30 and I will have a cylinder in that gun that shoots 100 fps faster than what was chronoed at!?!

point is, enforce what we have and teach, don't make more rules that everyone hates anyway, teach what we already have and enforce it, that will take care of the scary P*s too! right?? if everyone follows the rules P*s are covered right?

I fully understand the whole P* thing, I was the first one to mention this a year ago that we should start to make people aware, not through arbitrary rulings because we are afraid of something new.

....and go....?
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Re: So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-08 / 16:09 UTC GMT +00:00

No, I totally agree with you within that context. I myself would rather catch a cheater and ban them for life than just maybe deter them for today. Honestly, most games that say chrono spot checks don't actually do it. I've been to only one game where I was asked to chrono in game and on the spot, and maybe two others where I have even seen it done at all.

I myself don't know why they're just pickng on PolarStars, is this becoming a problem? I have always had the largest issues with GBBRs myself. I'll explain; a cheater is a cheater. Cheating is a mentality and an intent, it is something done on purpose and that mindset has to be hunted down and drowned out. The equipment itself doesn't cheat, so although controls and standards are good, they should be the same across the board. If we're worried about guns with an easily variable FPS, and fair enough, I'd say the PTW is the easiest to alter. Depending on how tight your takedown pin is, you can swap cylinders in under ten seconds flat. Quick change spring AEGs I find take a full minute or more to adjust, same with high end programmable mosfets. NPAS valves are all over the place, usually depending on where they are installed on the gun, and Polar Stars and similar I honestly couldn't tell you. If it's just a matter of air tank valve adjustment, then technically they could be adjusted in one to two seconds depending on your setup. Perhaps then the issue is less with cheating and more with it adjusting itself? Here's my real question; how high can the velocity of a Polar Star go if adjusted open all the way?

GBBRs, depending on which type you have, can be heavily adjusted just by switching rounds. I'm not just talking about joule-creep, but a minimal variance in velocity when changing out rounds. Let's take the cheaters out of the equation for a second, because I'd like to hear people's thoughts on GBBRs, as well as more on Polar Stars. So with an AEG, PTW, Springer, etc, when you up the round weight, let's say from 0.20g and up, the velocity and therefore the joules drop pretty steadily amongst all platforms. If my gun chrono's at 400 FPS on a 0.20g, then it drops to 360 on a 0.25g, 340 on a 0.28g, etc, but the overall kinetic force doesn't go up, it stays relatively the same. On many GBBRs, this isn't the case. I have seen ones that let's say chrono at 400 FPS on a 0.20g, then 392 with 0.25g, and 388 on a 0.28g, etc. This means the overall kinetic force of the gun is sky-rocketing and becoming more dangerous. Add on top of that temperature swing and that gun could be shooting extremely high over the limits by noon, when it starts to warm up a bit. In my opinion, let me say, that each individual is 100% responsible for their gun. If I was to run a game, and we chrono'd your GBBR at game start and it was within limits, then spot check chrono'd at say noon, and it was over with nothing adjusted, I'd ban that gun and possibly kick the player out. I don't care that their gun is adjustable, non-adjustable, has major or mild temperature changes, suffers from occasional joule creep, cost them a fortune, or is the only gun that they have. So how did we combat this? Well, for starters most places didn't have an inbetween class for DMR, it was assault or sniper, period. The places that did have a DMR class had rules about gun length, using a scope and bipod, also having full-auto fully locked out. So the general assault limit was 400-420 FPS. 400 was the benchmark, 420 was the hard cap. This meant that a gun that shoots or is capable of shooting 421 or higher is strictly prohibited. I'm not talking about adjustably so, like you can turn a valve or swap a spring, but in its present state. So during chrono, everyone with a spring to air-cushion platform could essentially go up to 415-419 FPS depending on how the admin felt about it. GBBRs were usually kept lower because they would, or may, increase as the day went on. Also, GBBRs had to chrono with two round weights, usually 0.20g and 0.28g, then the player would have to state what round weight they were using. If it was 0.30g, 0.32g, or higher, they may be asked to chrono again with that round weight, depending on how their gun reacted during initial chronographing. Once it was all said and done, the GBBR player, if within the safety limits and had no chance of their gun temperature swinging over, were stuck with that one BB weight, they were not allowed to switch. So, what do you think and how does this relate with Polar Stars? I know they don't suffer from temperature and humidity as much, but what about joule-creep and upping the round weight?

So to totally finish off my opinion on the velocity control topic, I'd have to say, I agree with Cook-Off, but I'm really all for control points to be put in place. Firstly let me say that I will never disagree with a rule just because it is new or will cost me money. These things are not anyone else's problem but their own individual issue. I've seen games that demand a certain level of comms equipment, specific patterns of camouflage, specific safety kit requirements, etc, etc. If someone doesn't have these things, their choices are to buck up or shut up. If you can't a afford it or don't want to do it, then don't attend. The game host has no responsibility to cater to individuals. As far as the control devices themselves, they do have a home in game. Once a venue reaches a certain size, let's say 60 - 100 people, it becomes harder to ref or admin. In airsoft this can be like trying to corral a group of rabid cats. So if an intelligent velocity control exists, then it's just one more way you can make the gun owner more personally accountable. The less equipment on the field you need to worry about, the better it will be for everyone as admins can focus on other crap. If you're responsible for a game you'd want to do everything reasonable to keep players health and safety maximized. I can tell you that FPS cheaters are rampant within the sport.

But whatever the rules end up being, they have to be the same for everyone. So if Polar Stars and similar require locks, then all Polar Stars and similar need to be locked on the field.
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Re: So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-08 / 19:59 UTC GMT +00:00

I just spoke to some friends from Alberta and Manitoba. Tourney locks are the norm. That's not to say that they are for certain used everywhere, as I haven't asked RAAT or EAR yet, but that's the standard. Receiver decals for PTWs and quick change AEGs, 24 lock mosfets for AEGs and we can't really do anything about NPAS valves guns in most cases at this time. These aren't all used all the time, but they are becoming more and more common. I've even seen a few games that bans CO2 pistols altogether.
I never wear an emblem, garment or title I have not earned. I never pretend to be, claim to be nor impersonate someone or something I am not. I never diminish, disrespect nor depreciate the sacrifices of true heroes. I utilize military style gear, equipment and tactics as they are the best and most appropriate tools for the job. I am a combat sports athlete.

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Re: So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-09 / 05:04 UTC GMT +00:00

Is a tournament lock an extra part or an included piece of the original kit?

For an included widget, seems reasonable requirement unless a host can easily put on a tamper decal (treat all adjustable guns equally).
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Re: So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-09 / 06:49 UTC GMT +00:00

jsae wrote:Is a tournament lock an extra part or an included piece of the original kit?

For an included widget, seems reasonable requirement unless a host can easily put on a tamper decal (treat all adjustable guns equally).


Don't have a Polarstar but from what I've seen and know, it sorta depends on your regulator. Tourney locks can be an extra part you need to get aftermarket or a simple zip tie. All it really does physically lock you out from adjusting the PSI on your regulator.

Pic I found for reference, though I believe the top two on the left w/ the zipties going through the cap are locked incorrectly as I've been told the zip ties are supposed to go around that piece that connects to the tank release valve to prevent people from unscrewing the caps w/ the zip tie on and adjusting the fps that way.
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Though, I've also been curious about the tourney lock thing as well, after seeing it being mentioned in a few recent game announcement rules. Haven't seen it mentioned any time prior to that.
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Re: So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-10 / 16:31 UTC GMT +00:00

Honestly this is rediclous I know in the states they are having bigger problems with polarstars. Field owners are down right banning then. They are the new thing on the block and ITs easy to blame polarstar users cranking tanks for when you get beaten then someone actually beat you due to better tactics or a better maintained Airsoft system. For the guys I know that use polarstars on the field use tanks in backpack so to get the pressure higher you would literally need someone to turn it up for you. Not probable. I mean at panther we stop every 10 minutes for reload breaks. How hard would it be to have random cronoing then? And when you change the pressure on your tank you have yo change the settings on the fcu for optimization. No reason to blast out 500fps of you can't hit anything
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Re: So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-10 / 17:18 UTC GMT +00:00

I see your point, but what makes a tourney lock ridiculous? There shouldn't be a problem putting one on your system. It is the norm, they are easy to get, they aren't expensive, so what is it? Is it just the fact you don't want to? I've never complained when my gun was controlled or I was randomly chronographed. I was at a game where players were caught swapping cylinders by a spot check, I'm assuming due to a complaint, and afterwards they argued the point. No no, complete asshats are out there. Our cooperation as responsible players is important. Polar stars are the new target of a lot of criticism certainly, but any easily adjustable gun will be, period. Rules are made for the lowest common denominator don't forget. The honorable guy who has his tank mounted in a backpack isn't the target of this rule, it's the people who are going to cheat, and they're out there, believe me. At least polar stars aren't being banned, that's what would bother me. Many years back there were clubs that banned PTWs and it wasn't because of the easy cylinder swap. Remember, you are responsible for your gun. How else can you responsibly minimize cheating when there's 100 or more players on the field? You won't be able to spot check everyone.

But really though, what's the big deal about having to have a tourney lock? The only even partial argument I've heard is warning for the local scene, but the game was announced a month or more in advance.
I never wear an emblem, garment or title I have not earned. I never pretend to be, claim to be nor impersonate someone or something I am not. I never diminish, disrespect nor depreciate the sacrifices of true heroes. I utilize military style gear, equipment and tactics as they are the best and most appropriate tools for the job. I am a combat sports athlete.

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Re: So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-10 / 19:19 UTC GMT +00:00

I think I might have taken this conversation out of context thinking this was a new rule for panther. If it was I would think it was silly. Just for the fact at panther there isn't any other system controlled in this manner.
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Re: So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-10 / 21:45 UTC GMT +00:00

That is my grip...apparently (seen on the sign up rules for the next OO sim) this is a Panther rule and has been in place for some time??? never heard of it right out of the blue to me!

yup tourney lock is no problem, look at the pictures above, that is it, a zap strap or zip tie (I can tell you those are doing nothing because the end cap screws off so the tie is doing nothing from preventing you to unscrew the end cap and make adjustments? :roll: ) anyway that is kinda my point, arbitrary rules for something that the rule makers no nothing about but go off the complaint of one or two individuals so make a rule....that is already in place covering FPS and MED, P* have to obey them or they are cheating like any other platform!!??

the only rule I would like to see made official would be BBPS or ROF! anyone and I mean anyone can fudge the fps one way or an other and that is not good but what really stands out in a P* is its capability to fire extreme ROF I have tested mine to 55 bbps before the mags I have didn't feed, but that is all that stopped me going higher!

and that was shooting DMR 450 fps...!!! that's where the danger is!

like anything that you have a LARGE investment in you want to protect it, may sound paranoid but as mention some fields have all out Banned P*, which is ridicules to me, this is just plain not understanding the platform and making a knee jerk reaction to something not understood or care too get information on.

cant stress, educate the player and maintain repetitious enforcement of rules already in place...that will take care of the FPS and MED issues for any platform including P*! :shock:
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Re: So ya!! what about them bad old P*s?

Post2015-04-11 / 01:20 UTC GMT +00:00

There are physical tourney locks for polar stars that can be easily bypassed as well, which should be mentioned. I can't stand the fact that things get outright banned for no reason either.

RPS is starting to become an issue and I believe some places are strictly limiting it. 25 RPS is the standard I believe, but don't quote me.

All that being said, and to honest I don't know the current situation out this way, but polar star crankers have been an issue. I don't think it is fair to pick on polar stars, but perhaps the issue is more of an RPS than an FPS problem? The only sure way to control something is to outright ban, but limiters and inhibitors will and can work. Number of players does come into play though. Also it is possible that Panther has just made this a rule as well and Omega Ops is just abiding. There are a few new or new-ish Panther rules that haven't been fully enforced as of late.

What exactly are the polar stars full capabilities if inhindered, FPS and RPS?
I never wear an emblem, garment or title I have not earned. I never pretend to be, claim to be nor impersonate someone or something I am not. I never diminish, disrespect nor depreciate the sacrifices of true heroes. I utilize military style gear, equipment and tactics as they are the best and most appropriate tools for the job. I am a combat sports athlete.

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