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My return?

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bushman

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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-21 / 00:41 UTC GMT +00:00

So 1 team having 4 different radio channels so no one can communicate is structured? Or telling them the rules of the game and they do whatever they want, or having to tell them over and over they can't respawn when the base is under fire, or no goggles when shooting a gun BEHIND the firing line is ok, or full auto at one foot away to the ribs?
As long as we start on time tho nothing else matters.
That sounds like babysitting to me!
Some people think I am trying to be sneaky, its really that my eyes are not as good and I have to make sure its a tree and not the enemy! Trees do not call hits. I have shot a few.
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jsae

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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-21 / 06:09 UTC GMT +00:00

Life's a piece of shit
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Just remember that the last laugh is on you.

So,....

I have had mixed experiences with other players on the days I've played under the current format. Generally, the players I have encountered have called their hits as consistently as I would expect of their predecessors.

New players always need encouragement and reminders. We now have people coming from a less experienced player pool that is much (10x or 20x) larger than the old one. So reaching the players will take longer. Patience, wisdom and coaching are called for, along with healthy examples.
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Crash

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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-23 / 14:58 UTC GMT +00:00

Well Bushman experience really doesn't surprise me. I think the best thing to do is squad up with the experienced guys and leave the newbs alone.If they show a genuine interest then have them tag along.

Lets face it, this is the new way to airsoft!!! Cook-off has been trying to host objective based games. But as Bushman has been saying with no great success. It looks like airsoft will just have to weather this transition.

What the clubs will look like at the other end? Who knows!
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Meatshower

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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-24 / 00:01 UTC GMT +00:00

Someone in the community tried organizing all the more experienced players on 1 forum, and pretty much everyone forgot about it. I know my word doesn't mean too much right now with me being all the way in Kamloops and not being involved, but it seems like this could almost be the moment where we can either help make or break airsoft. I mean, think of it like this. A flood of new players into the sport, and a lot of them have no clue what they're doing. We can either help them/mentor them into this sport, or we can just sit back, watch them run around and start the downfall of airsoft. I know that nobody want's to be babysitting and teaching on the field, especially when it's the weekend and you use the game as an escape from work/life/etc. But unfortunately it seems these are the cards we have been dealt.
Of course a lot of these new people aren't going to know the safety rules we know, and Panther staff might not really have the same views/safety standards that LMAG has. But if we help pass on these safety habits to this current influx of airsofters, and it's successful, then I think it might just help the game.
Again, I know that this could be quite the difficult process, and it's "Easier said then done", especially coming from a guy who doesn't live in Vancouver anymore. But these are just my thoughts on what's going on.
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bushman

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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-24 / 02:11 UTC GMT +00:00

When I see the admins of other clubs breaking rules and not following the game rules it makes it hard to train or mentor new players. The new players don't care about rules or games, they just want to shoot bbs.
Some people think I am trying to be sneaky, its really that my eyes are not as good and I have to make sure its a tree and not the enemy! Trees do not call hits. I have shot a few.
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Ricochet

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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-24 / 08:18 UTC GMT +00:00

Okay, I'm still kind of an outsider, so take this for what it is.

Firstly, airsoft is anything that uses an airsoft gun, and mentality and intent mean everything. Everyone wants something different, so it only appears that we are together on this. While most groups are close enough in their goals that they can usually get something kind of going, let's stop and look at this from a different perspective. In shooting, you can use a bow, a gun, do ipsc training, collect, go hunting, target or sport shooting, etc. They are all very different though. Paintball speedball or woodsball is closer to airsoft speedball/woodsball, than to milsim or scenario airsoft is, yet we don't call paintball airsoft. If there is to be any community success, then working together will have to happen, and that will only happen when pride is put aside. Some groups are just not going to mix, it's like Vietnam rein-actors and WWII rein-actors. It may appear they are the same, but really they aren't. There will always be rules or tenants that we don't like, but as long as we are close, then we'll just have to find a way to deal with it. For instance; I myself am not crazy about LMAG's FPS/MED rules. It doesn't mean that they aren't valid or correct, they just aren't how I'd do it. That being said, that isn't enough to keep me away from what seems to be a good group of guys, and is a small price to pay. If I disagreed with everything, then I can go play somewhere else.

One obstacle at the moment is the fact that non-airsofters (essentially), are in control of the game fields. That doesn't mean that they are doing a bad job, but they are a business, and that is going to be their priority, and they have to make it work for everyone. To be honest, this doesn't have to kill it, as we can still set thing up and play easily enough and work together. Too many roosters in the hen house are a big, big, very big problem. Everyone wanting to do things different within the same space is going to create issues anywhere. So before finger pointing starts happening, the culprit is easily removable. Running an airsoft game isn't political, it's simple. If someone is running a game, they are either going to do a good job or not, their rules are going to be reasonable, or they aren't. Let's face it, just because someone wants something bad enough or has decent ideas, does not make them a good leader or coordinator. If games and teams are falling apart, then players will find another avenue of play.

This all sounds very negative, but there is a few things that can be done. If you are going to host games, then you have to be able to corral rabid hyenas and control the flow of the event. If a bunch of kids without focus us the issue, then make it undesirable for them to act that way. They'll migrate somewhere else eventually. Each squad or team needs clear commanders, not a bunch of run-amocks. If I put Bushman in charge of group A, then they are accountable to him, not just able to waggle off on their own. Put a few coordinated people in charge of each side in command, and each team, group, player on that side has to go through them. If you don't do this, nothing will get done. If the 'Mission Lightning' airsoft team let's say, has an issue with this, they can go play speedball with the kids. If it turns out that Bushman isn't a great leader, next time we'll try others. Commanders are allowed to make mistakes, and lose a game and get people killed. Without adequate leadership and coordination, the games will fall apart. Also have a few "clearly marked" admins on either team, who are just there to enforce rules, sportsmanship, and if necessary help the game along.

As far as radios go, unless you have a hundred players on one team, then everyone should be on the same channel' don't give them the choice. Cooperate or go play speedball. Everyone who has a radio should at least be listening in, and only team leaders and command need to talk. Chatter is punishable by death when radio comms are important. You don't need to micro-manage everyone, but it'll help. If you put one guy on each team on the command channel, then what happens when he dies or his radio breaks? You're one full squad with the same goal, who cares if you're from different airsoft teams?

Objective based games are the backbone of good scenario airsoft, but simplicity is essential. You can have a billion objectives, but then things will get lost in translation, and the commanders "must" have a clear understanding of the game and it's rules. Once the game is underway, it is far too late to change it. If a game starts to fall apart and command cannot wrangle back to center, then call it early, and start again. Your game rules and your general rules should always be separate. Your base airsoft rules shouldn't change often, or else people will get confused and mix them up. If you have a different medic or respawn rule for every single game it starts to muddy from one day to another. Can you imagine the chaos if FPS/MED rules kept changing? Well, the consequences aren't the same, but the path to breakdown is, and confusion is the surest way to flaring tempers and animosity. For instance, and just in my opinion, medics should be used sparsely in games, you don't always need them, and they should be assigned. If no one on Team Red wants to volunteer, then that is their problem and they can go without, we'll see how it works out for them. Avoid the use of "timed" bleed-outs or respawns, or keep it short and sweet. Bleed-out for two minutes, and only use bleed-outs if you have medics. Otherwise, buddy can chill back at spawn, not with BB's whizzing over his head, and not in the way of other players. At respawn, tag ins are best, but if that keeps flooding the field with too many players for someone to gain ground, then push the respawns back, far away from any objective, and if necessary, that's where you assign a respawn time. Perhaps a few simple props can help here as well. The best medics and respawns I've seen have mildly interactive, like ropes to hold and bandages to tie, etc. Any type of complicated or unlimited medic is always bad. Once you've been medic'd in and you get shot again, take a walk. If not, then teams will take advantage and you'll never be able to roll a building or bunker.

For objectives, having clear and mobile objectives helps keep things moving. Taking buildings and bridges is good and all, but is also the surest way to drag the game into an unfocused shoot fest. Attack and defend games should be short and sweet. For example; Team A has to defend the bunker but has no respawns, Team B has tag in respawns back at a designated point, but only has 30 min to take the building. A mobile objective has something that can be moved, and therefore forces the fight to flow around the battlefield. If players have somewhere to sit their asses, they will. Make them go after the other team. Think of it like a football game, everyone wants the football. Too many rules, ever changing rules, complex rules, back stories, heaps of objectives just make people forget what they are doing. How many times have you asked the question "How long are bleed-outs?" or "Where do we spawn again?". If you have confusion, like for instance people respawning in the objective bunker, then an admin can march in there and immediately fix the situation. Kind of hard to do while everyone is on separate radio channels and not cooperating.

You'll never get everyone everything they want, but at least provide a solid situation in which to play games. If things are organized and enjoyable, then people will fall in and support you. If people aren't cooperating it could be because they aren't in the right place, or whoever is trying to run the show is the wrong person for the job. That's not me calling anyone in particular out, but if everyone is fighting over power then this will go nowhere fast and end up nowhere good. LMAG was it, also there was Omega, now there is GVAC. Tomorrow will there be another? Whoever is running the show must be amenable to change. Airsoft is progressive and will continue to get more competitive, not less. Also, don't afraid to ban or control the goofy things that make it childish out there. Most places I have ever played across Canada either severely ban or limit high-caps, don't allow things like riot shields at all, and don't have a lot of MEDs. Let's face it, BBs hurt and can break skin, that's just life. If you're that worried then wear a full helmet, mask, goggles, etc. Either that, or your FPS rules are too high and dangerous. Man up or armor up. Full-auto at close range isn't fun, but that's a folly of the other player, they could just as easily do it by accident, it's not like having a rule will stop them. Last I checked no one gets punished for it. usually what I see is the dude who gets shot yells and swears at them, the shooter yells sorry, and they get on with their life. full-auto close range is like a head shot, it's not great, but shit happens.

Anyways, I've been having fun, but I see tempers getting worse out there and not better. A smart airsofter can find a way to keep rolling with the game if it has issues. If you see a problem then say something or help, don't start feuding. If you're not a part of the solution you're part of the problem, that's what my old man used to say. There's a lot of good players and good attitudes, we should have no problem making this work. I guarantee you there will be people who will leave either way, you can't please everyone. But it's avid players who should be steering this ship, we are in the best position to help and can also do the most damage. Don't be too stubborn, or else you'll find yourself alone.

Anyways, the good news is that I don't see this as being wrecked yet. The other day when TJ ran the games, it went pretty well. Games could use a little refining, but it was enjoyable. When Cook-off did it, the games were interesting, but no one had a clear perspective on the rules. Everyone believed something different, and thus it came to a stalemate in parts. Overall, I like that you guys are stepping up to run the games, but don't be afraid to lay down the law. If you miss the briefing, and therefore don't get an armband, let them stay in the safe zone. If someone can't be bothered to listen during the safety briefing, they can go play with the speedballers. There's always paintball.

I'm willing to cooperate with anyone who is willing to step up and keep things moving. Forgive for imperfection and help to refine. But what I won't do is start to pick sides, I'd rather tell someone they are doing a bad job and they can hate me for it.
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Saxon

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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-24 / 16:38 UTC GMT +00:00

Ricochet, that was a really well put post. I'm new to the whole scene, and am excited to be getting involved with games & the airsoft community. As a new player, I'd like to put the best foot forward & learn from experienced players. Not just on the tactical side, but also from the good sportsmanship and responsible player side of things.
I'm finding a lot of complaints from people frustrated with new players or unsportsmanlike players, which is understandable given what I gather is an influx of folks who just get a gun & start blasting away.
Are there any newb training events, like an airsoft boot camp? It would be good if a bunch of is can get started off on the right track.
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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-25 / 15:19 UTC GMT +00:00

Saxon wrote:Ricochet, that was a really well put post. I'm new to the whole scene, and am excited to be getting involved with games & the airsoft community. As a new player, I'd like to put the best foot forward & learn from experienced players. Not just on the tactical side, but also from the good sportsmanship and responsible player side of things.
I'm finding a lot of complaints from people frustrated with new players or unsportsmanlike players, which is understandable given what I gather is an influx of folks who just get a gun & start blasting away.
Are there any newb training events, like an airsoft boot camp? It would be good if a bunch of is can get started off on the right track.



Are there any newb training events, like an airsoft boot camp? It would be good if a bunch of is can get started off on the right track


There used to be, even before my time apparently so thats years back now, :oops: But if you take the same "Path to airsoft" as I did you will be fine. Show up, shut up, and play honorably. The vets will be there to help, answer questions, and I PROMISE that will make your days much more enjoyable.


Richochet,
Not much to add, just well said. Good read to start the day off. It is nice to hear that there are more people that are thinking the same thing, just gotta get order and civility back which is definatly and uphill battle. Despite what some think however, the days are running smoother, it may not look like it but its true.
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Ricochet

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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-26 / 20:18 UTC GMT +00:00

Well, I know exactly what Bushman and them are talking about. There has been a lack of control in the safe zone and on the field, no question. If we're going to be running games there, then Panther may need to let us have some minor authority. Just to enforce safety regulations and sportsmanlike conduct, otherwise what's the point? I'm sure we can work together to make this best case scenario. So far Elliott has been quite positive and accommodating, at least towards myself, I can't speak for everyone.

On a side note, if a private group, such as LMAG, wishes to fully have their way they'll need their own private field. That's not a shot at LMAG either, but that's what it would take, and that's how my team and many others used to do it. And if they did acquire an LMAG controlled field, I'd likely play there from time to time. Having experienced and sportsmanlike, not to mention like-minded players, at a game makes things pretty smooth.

But back to reality for a moment. New players are going to happen, and they should happen. If we want to control the flow, then we are going to have to recruit and mentor, that's just life. There's new players joining every week, so we'll need to take that into consideration. This also means that there will be new cheaters on the field all the time. This is something I have just learned to accept. The bigger the player numbers, the more cheaters you'll have, and not necessarily just from newer or younger players. Although they will make up the bulk of the problem. There are ways to deal with cheaters, and it starts with all of the experienced players being on the same page, and having a clear and concise methodology to running games. The most common cheater will be the no hit callers and the bullshit respawners. No hit callers are tricky to deal with because you have to be certain that's what they are. No hit callers are repeat offenders, and will be identified by multiple people. If you're certain someone isn't calling hits, then put your dead rag on, and make sure to find out who it is. Having an incident on the field is not necessary. An admin who witnesses blatant behaviour is the best solution. An incident where a hit may or may not be being called, at a distance, or you could over estimate your gun unfortunately doesn't mean anything, we've all been guilty of not calling a hit in our careers for one reason or another. If you can shoot them once, you can shoot them again. Maybe just put one down their ear canal the next time, etc.

Anyways, long story short, having intolerance for cheating will have the desired effect long term. There will always be cheaters to varying degrees, but after the first few get banned for life it'll weed down their numbers greatly. Another thing we'd do at large games, usually of sixty plus, is have undercover admins. Basically they keep their badges in a pocket, unlike your primary admins, but their job is to watch their own team for blatant cheating.

There are all kinds of things that can be done to improve the situation, but it'll start with the experienced players setting food examples.
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jsae

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Re: My return?

Post2015-02-27 / 05:03 UTC GMT +00:00

Elliott has treated me similarly.

So many great recommendations, Ricochet. I'm going to see if I can use some in the next scenario I put together.

I have also learned of some potentially good ideas related to managing issues from when the other groups host scenarios.
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